What is your takes on nitrogen tires
05-19-2009, 05:48 AM
#1
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What is your takes on nitrogen tires
The claims are this:
1. Nitrogen-filled tires maintain proper pressure longer
2. The rubber of nitrogen-filled tires last longer
3. Nitrogen is less volatile than oxygen and thus safer in a fiery crash
4. Cars with Nitrogen-filled tires get better gas mileage
1. Nitrogen-filled tires maintain proper pressure longer
2. The rubber of nitrogen-filled tires last longer
3. Nitrogen is less volatile than oxygen and thus safer in a fiery crash
4. Cars with Nitrogen-filled tires get better gas mileage
05-19-2009, 09:36 AM
#2
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Well if you're filling up your tires on a very humid day claims 1 and 4 might have some merit to them, however if the air is dry when you do it than there's really no issue there. Claim number 3...well I just don't see that as being a problem if you're already in a fiery crash. Chances are your tires have already been popped even before the fire broke out. Claim number 2 to me is pure BS. People either get dry rot from the outside or don't even keep tires that long for that to even be a decision factor.
05-20-2009, 05:48 AM
#3
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my reason for asking
I noticed a low tire and said to my self " I need to get my air pressure checked." I went to firestone in Atlanta. They looked at the tires and said. WOW! I cant do your tires, you have nitrogen in them. (I have lime green caps) I said . were can I get them done. Dude said. I dont know. check the rim shop around the corner. My luck. Its about 7pm and the rim shops closed. Next day after work I looked at the tire and said. Hmmm. Needs air. I have Pepboys Number. "sevice plz" " service, I'm have a tire issue. do u deal with nitrogen inflated tires." they said, no. but there about to do away with nitrogen tires air anyway. I asked. can i just add air to them with no problem? he said yes. just add normal air and you will be fine. I went by QuickTrip and added the air.
what was firestone heads problem that he was so chicken sh/it to add air to my tires???
Oh. and my car came with lime green caps. I didnt do it myself. do Aero models come like this (green cap and nitrogen) mine was used.
what was firestone heads problem that he was so chicken sh/it to add air to my tires???
Oh. and my car came with lime green caps. I didnt do it myself. do Aero models come like this (green cap and nitrogen) mine was used.
05-20-2009, 08:04 AM
#4
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Many cars came with nitrogen filled tires. The firestone guy was rightfully not willing to just add air, since that is an easy way for him to get in trouble. Not that there would be any damage, but simply because he knowingly would have done something he wasn't supposed to.
05-20-2009, 02:09 PM
#5
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There was a HUGE discussion on this in the other forum I'm involved in for my other car. Most of it seems to be BS. A more in depth investigation on the principles behind these claims might help a little more.
1. Nitrogen-filled tires maintain proper pressure longer ---- Nitrogen has larger molecules than oxygen, argon, and the other various gasses in the atmosphere that make up plain air. So what they are saying is that the pores/micro-passageways in the tire are too small for Nitrogen to pass through, but Oxygen and the others are small enough, therefore gradually loosing pressure.
2. The rubber of nitrogen-filled tires last longer ---- Oxygen is just that: an oxidizer, the primary component of rust. Chances are that if you don't store your car, your tread-life isn't going to last as long as the tire if the rubber actually oxidizes. I know rubber can dry out and get dry-rot cracking, but I don't think that has anything to do with the oxygen IN the tires. You can't do anything about the oxygen OUTside the tire, so what would be the point? And you could also apply this to the first point as a tire maintaining proper pressure longer will give you better tread-wear over time, vs air which will gradually loose pressure, causing uneven tread-wear.
3. Nitrogen is less volatile than oxygen and thus safer in a fiery crash ---- I would imagine that this has everything to do with the effect a bellows has on a fireplace fire. Blowing air on an open flame will intensify it because of the oxygen in the air. In the case of being safer in a fiery crash, I'm guessing they are thinking that if there is enough heat to melt a hole in the tire/tires, you will potentially have four bellows-like puffs of air on the fire to intensify it. Nitrogen in the tires will negate this effect being an inert gas, hence less volatile and safer. But I can't see how four short puffs of air (most likely widely spaced as the fire moved around) would make that MUCH of a difference, and like Roto said, if you're already in a fiery crash, chances are your tires are already popped.
4. Cars with Nitrogen-filled tires get better gas mileage ---- This applies to the first point. Holding proper pressure longer will get you better gas mileage over time as the air-filled tire looses pressure and wont get as good of gas mileage. But beyond that, it's as full of BS as one could get. Nitrogen is heavier than oxygen. And even then, the differences between weight and all the physics that go into rotational inertia is going to be so minimal between pure nitrogen and plain air that unless you're driving a solar powered ultralight cross-country race car, it won't help. And in that case, you might as well fill your tires with hydrogen or helium.
And something that has not been addressed here, is the problem of verifying that your tires are actually filled with pure nitrogen. When the tire is mounted on the rim, it's full of plain air. Just filling it with nitrogen at that point on and letting it go still leaves a bunch of air in the tire, negating the point of putting nitrogen in the tire. There are a few solutions to this: 1: buy a rim with two valve stems per wheel to aid in purging. They are out there, I've seen them in person. 2: the place filling the tires will need to purge the air out, leaving a gap in the seal of the tire while filling. 3: filling the tire with nitrogen, and then letting it all out and repeating until the air is purged. All of these methods would require gas testing equipment to verify that almost all the unwanted gasses have been purged from the tire. This takes time, which costs money in addition to covering the cost of the equipment and the gas itself.
In conclusion, I honestly don't think the benefits outweigh the cost or even make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.
I'll fill my tires with plain old air. That's free.
1. Nitrogen-filled tires maintain proper pressure longer ---- Nitrogen has larger molecules than oxygen, argon, and the other various gasses in the atmosphere that make up plain air. So what they are saying is that the pores/micro-passageways in the tire are too small for Nitrogen to pass through, but Oxygen and the others are small enough, therefore gradually loosing pressure.
2. The rubber of nitrogen-filled tires last longer ---- Oxygen is just that: an oxidizer, the primary component of rust. Chances are that if you don't store your car, your tread-life isn't going to last as long as the tire if the rubber actually oxidizes. I know rubber can dry out and get dry-rot cracking, but I don't think that has anything to do with the oxygen IN the tires. You can't do anything about the oxygen OUTside the tire, so what would be the point? And you could also apply this to the first point as a tire maintaining proper pressure longer will give you better tread-wear over time, vs air which will gradually loose pressure, causing uneven tread-wear.
3. Nitrogen is less volatile than oxygen and thus safer in a fiery crash ---- I would imagine that this has everything to do with the effect a bellows has on a fireplace fire. Blowing air on an open flame will intensify it because of the oxygen in the air. In the case of being safer in a fiery crash, I'm guessing they are thinking that if there is enough heat to melt a hole in the tire/tires, you will potentially have four bellows-like puffs of air on the fire to intensify it. Nitrogen in the tires will negate this effect being an inert gas, hence less volatile and safer. But I can't see how four short puffs of air (most likely widely spaced as the fire moved around) would make that MUCH of a difference, and like Roto said, if you're already in a fiery crash, chances are your tires are already popped.
4. Cars with Nitrogen-filled tires get better gas mileage ---- This applies to the first point. Holding proper pressure longer will get you better gas mileage over time as the air-filled tire looses pressure and wont get as good of gas mileage. But beyond that, it's as full of BS as one could get. Nitrogen is heavier than oxygen. And even then, the differences between weight and all the physics that go into rotational inertia is going to be so minimal between pure nitrogen and plain air that unless you're driving a solar powered ultralight cross-country race car, it won't help. And in that case, you might as well fill your tires with hydrogen or helium.
And something that has not been addressed here, is the problem of verifying that your tires are actually filled with pure nitrogen. When the tire is mounted on the rim, it's full of plain air. Just filling it with nitrogen at that point on and letting it go still leaves a bunch of air in the tire, negating the point of putting nitrogen in the tire. There are a few solutions to this: 1: buy a rim with two valve stems per wheel to aid in purging. They are out there, I've seen them in person. 2: the place filling the tires will need to purge the air out, leaving a gap in the seal of the tire while filling. 3: filling the tire with nitrogen, and then letting it all out and repeating until the air is purged. All of these methods would require gas testing equipment to verify that almost all the unwanted gasses have been purged from the tire. This takes time, which costs money in addition to covering the cost of the equipment and the gas itself.
In conclusion, I honestly don't think the benefits outweigh the cost or even make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.
I'll fill my tires with plain old air. That's free.
05-20-2009, 03:55 PM
#7
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The point about oxygen leaking through the rubber is something I can't live with. I've filled the tires of my old civic once and three years later the pressure was withing 2psi and that was probably due to a temperture difference. Oxidation would apply to the metal belts inside the tire, but they're not exposed. I've never seen them rusted on blowouts hence I doubt that it's really a valid concern.
05-20-2009, 10:27 PM
#8
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Benefits of Nitrogen in Tires
Ducati ST3
- Better performance - Nitrogen tires perform better, last longer, and function with a greater degree of safety than tires inflated with regular compressed air.
- Enhanced safety ? Using nitrogen for tires will help maintain car or truck tire pressure up to 40% longer than regular compressed air, which means greater handling, control & grip, minimizing the danger of catastrophic road failure.
- Longer tire life - Industry field tests suggest nitrogen tires can last up to 30% longer. Since nitrogen is a clean, moisture-free gas, it slows down internal tire oxidation, which slows down the aging of your tires.
- Better fuel economy - Nitrogen for car tires is definitely one way to save on gas!With improved tire inflation comes improved gas mileage. Using nitrogen in tires can improve gas mileage by as much as 6%.
Ducati ST3
Last edited by FastBMW123; 01-26-2011 at 05:46 AM.
05-22-2009, 03:45 AM
#9
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The point about oxygen leaking through the rubber is something I can't live with. I've filled the tires of my old civic once and three years later the pressure was withing 2psi and that was probably due to a temperture difference. Oxidation would apply to the metal belts inside the tire, but they're not exposed. I've never seen them rusted on blowouts hence I doubt that it's really a valid concern.
I've never had a problem with reduced air pressures over time in any of the cars that I've owned, and I've filled the tires with compressed air. Even major season changes. And I monitor my pressures regularly. The only instance I've had in which the pressure dropped, was in sub-zero temperatures, the sidewall seal broke. I just filled it back up, and never had the issue again. Sure I have to fill them up when it gets extremely cold, due to temperature differences, but that's pretty much normal.
Here is a link to one of the other Nitrogen discussions in my other forum. Ignoring the common banter, there are some very informative posts with some physics thinking going on.
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php...&#entry3755181
I will also quote another member who made this post with another link to a consumer reports chart comparing nitrogen tires to air tires. Some of this has already been touched upon in the above posted thread, but there is some additional stuff here.
Air composition taken from wiki. 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide,
With negligible effect from Ar, and CO2. The air we pump in the the tire is already 78% nitrogen and only 21% oxygen.
YOu can see here from thsi research.. there is hardly any benefit from from using nitrogen
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/pho...t_consumer.gif
Also if you refer to the ideal gas law. PV=nRT, Given you fill up at STP(standard temperature and pressure)
number of Moles in a tire will stay constant whether you fill up with Oxygen or Nitrogen.
R is contant so that doesn't change P (pressure)
Only component that changes P is temperature,
so according to the gas law. pressure should not differ whether you fill up with pure Argon or Nitroge, or air
My chemistry is a little rusty so forgive me if I made a mistake.
Only thing I can see is that N2 is larger then O2, and have less effusion ratio then O2. therefor keep consistant pressure longer (which is bearly any)
With negligible effect from Ar, and CO2. The air we pump in the the tire is already 78% nitrogen and only 21% oxygen.
YOu can see here from thsi research.. there is hardly any benefit from from using nitrogen
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/pho...t_consumer.gif
Also if you refer to the ideal gas law. PV=nRT, Given you fill up at STP(standard temperature and pressure)
number of Moles in a tire will stay constant whether you fill up with Oxygen or Nitrogen.
R is contant so that doesn't change P (pressure)
Only component that changes P is temperature,
so according to the gas law. pressure should not differ whether you fill up with pure Argon or Nitroge, or air
My chemistry is a little rusty so forgive me if I made a mistake.
Only thing I can see is that N2 is larger then O2, and have less effusion ratio then O2. therefor keep consistant pressure longer (which is bearly any)
05-22-2009, 10:15 AM
#10
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Benefits of Nitrogen in Tires
- Better performance - Nitrogen tires perform better, last longer, and function with a greater degree of safety than tires inflated with regular compressed air.
- Enhanced safety – Using nitrogen for tires will help maintain car or truck tire pressure up to 40% longer than regular compressed air, which means greater handling, control & grip, minimizing the danger of catastrophic road failure.
- Longer tire life - Industry field tests suggest nitrogen tires can last up to 30% longer. Since nitrogen is a clean, moisture-free gas, it slows down internal tire oxidation, which slows down the aging of your tires.
- Better fuel economy - Nitrogen for car tires is definitely one way to save on gas!With improved tire inflation comes improved gas mileage. Using nitrogen in tires can improve gas mileage by as much as 6%.
Typical marketing BS... they're basically selling air... Now if they were filling my tires with helium... but that still wouldn't be worth it.